Stop the whataboutism. Stop defending genocide. Nothing Hamas does or could do can defend genocide.
But if you really want to play that game: everything Hamas does is also Israel’s fault. Israel created Hamas. They funded Hamas deliberately as a way to destabilise the Palestinians. They create oppressive conditions in which a militant organisation like Hamas is bound to thrive. Everything that Hamas does is a predictable outcome of Israel’s actions, and the ultimate blame lies squarely on them.
But again, that’s irrelevant. Because even if Hamas’s own actions weren’t Israel’s fault, Israel’s actions obviously are. Murdering children, doctors, and journalists by the hundreds are classic fascist moves. Displacing people en mass from their homes is genocide. Collective punishment is a war crime. Deliberately starving people is a war crime. Stop defending genocide.
Senior Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri… [in an] interview, which aired on a Libyan television channel… referred with indifference to the number of Palestinians who have been killed in the Gaza war, calling this “the price we have to pay,” and remarked that the women of Gaza will compensate for the loss by “producing” more babies than those who have been killed.
ProPals throw accusations of “whataboutism” when someone tries to discuss nuance as often as Zionists throw “anti-Semitism” when they are criticised.
The two points remain unaddressed by you:
Hamas hijack aid and are complaining now that IDF wants to control the distribution to prevent this.
Hamas could surrender for a swift end to the war.
everything Hamas does is also lsrael’s fault. lsrael created Hamas. They funded Hamas deliberately as a way to destabilise the Palestinians.
Indeed. Bibi favoured Hamas over Fatah and for cynical reasons as you point out. You are not talking to a one-eyed football mentality person.
Hamas (being right wing fascists like Likud) should have known the consequences of Oct 7 well in advance but they naively thought they could rally Arab neighbours to battle like in the past.
Hamas hijack aid and are complaining now that IDF wants to control the distribution to prevent this.
If the Israeli’s had shown an ounce of good faith actions throughout this whole horrible period, then maybe this demand would be less critically read.
But as it stands they have constricted supply of food, electricity and everything else as much as they can, restricted the water supply to, i think, one desal plant, don’t let journalists (even target them) in for a less biased appraisal of whats going on, continually attack the UN and International court for their calls for investigations, attack medical workers, as well as killing, through, bombs or other means, the Palestinians en-masse no matter their gender, age, or relation to their so called enemy Hamas.
Multiple internal surveys of Israeli public opinion paint a putrid picture of the overall societies vision for the ongoing survival of the Palestinian people.
And so, after all of this, the international community is supposed to trust the Israelis will act in good faith and fair dealing in their distribution of aid and resources?
No, what Israel and The US are doing is catastrophically bad. It is exactly what my comment warned against.
Israel cannot be trusted to deliver anything for the Palestinians in good faith. What happens as soon as the world’s eyes shift.
The Israeli’s cannot be trusted to be fair minded on this issue for the same reason victims of rape cannot be allowed to name the sentence of their rapist. An impartial party that can as genuinely as possible guarantee the actual aid delivery in the amounts is needed.
I think that video is shot like its a PR stunt, but it doesn’t even matter if its real, fake, a PR stunt, or the sign of a genuine change. There can be no genuine assurances while the Israelis and the US allies control the aid flow, there is no impartiality, and every reason for them to use the aid to maximise their own benefit. Its grotesque that this needs to be explained.
These quotes are from your linked article, and summarise the issue well,
Jens Laerke, spokesperson for the UN aid coordination office, OCHA: “It is a distraction from what is actually needed, which is a reopening of all the crossings into Gaza, a secure environment within Gaza and faster facilitation of permissions and final approvals of all the emergency supplies that we have just outside the border; [aid] needs to get in.”
UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini was equally blunt. “This new aid model is not only wasteful but a distraction from atrocities,” he told Reuters. The GHF system, Lazzarini argued, circumvents established humanitarian norms and risks using food as a weapon of population control.
UNWRA was compromised so the impartial party option has been abandoned.
It requires military to keep Hamas from stealing the aid. It is not realistic to expect an outside neutral military to take on this task. UN could not keep Hezbollah in check in Lebanon.
It seems Hamas are annoyed not just that they are being denied supplies for themselves and to sell to civilians but also because they need civilians to be starving to win the PR battle. Full stomachs will divert attention from the war so should we starve the people? Which is it? Allowing Hamas to hijack it isn’t going to happen so forget what the UN says (which is very vague).
Regardless of what we argue here, the distribution will continue. It is just two days into it so let’s see if it going well. Of course for some ProPals it will not go well unless Jews vacate the Levant (an unrealistic fantasy regardless of whether one believes they should be there or not).
Your points read like propaganda, they’re not a reflection of reality. I suggest you read the link above.
UNWRA was compromised
Doesn’t matter that you think they’re some cartoonish bad guy. Its not a spy agency, its an aid agency and it needs to work with Palestinian people in the country.
By Israel’s conveniently umbrella-like ‘assessments’ of these compromised ‘agents’ half the US military would be classified Taliban because they farted in Kabul. They’re people working in the place they’re in, with the people they’re with.
People don’t get to both sides starvation or colllective punishment, or the myriad other crimes. Israel is starving the population of Gaza, simple. When/if we see Hamas doing it, you’ll see my attitudes towards starvation of populations, and other crimes unchanged.
As i’ve said above, it doesn’t matter Hamas’ crimes, it doesn’t mean Israel gets a free pass on their crimes, and withholding food aid, or using it as a method of coercion absolutely are ongoing crimes.
I’ve never seen any verified and independent evidence of this iron grip Hamas apparently has over this bombed out tent city. Read the linked article, who would have thought scarcity created by Israel has had spiralling and detrimental effects on the social cohesion of ~2 million men, women and children.
Unfortunately Israel attempts to block the worlds view of what is happening in Gaza, so their claims must be read down as suspicuous at best, but more likely lies, until one day their actions match their words.
Four rationing points, and this is for a free people of millions?
Aid distributed and closely guarded by their oppressors. Freely given, no coercion, you think?
Think about those questions as you watch this murderous State squeeze this population, and extinguish these people’s lives.
You’re not understanding. Theres a point when the crimes become so heinous that it doesn’t matter what justification they claim, no justification is sufficient. Israel has passed that point, a long time ago in my opinion.
October 7th was heinous and likewise Hamas’ crimes have no justification. That doesn’t somehow ameliorate or absolve the Israelis of the crimes they’re committing.
The difference between the two groups from an Australian perspective is, Israel is a so called liberal democratic nation and has been an erstwhile ally of Australia due to our percieved alignment in values.
What they are doing to Palestinians is so against these ideals that it must call into question our relationship with them.
In Hamas’ case Australia has next to no relationship with, so our reaction to their behaviour is more simple, as its a contnuation of our determinations of them as a group.
Absolutely, and the arguments demigrating Hamas never accounted for the fact they’re a key force fighting against the oppression.
That is not what was done on October 7th, it doesn’t undermine the Palestinian cause for freedom, but that was shameful, and completely undermines their cause, as has been demonstrated by the insane response by the Israelis and the lack of care by a lot of people around the world.
You know the people i’m sure, the “they brought it on themselves” crowd.
European settlers exterminating indigenous people to take their land is about as inline with Australian ideals as it gets
Australia has a terrible past, and we haven’t treated our first Australians in any way well, but there are a lot of us trying to reconcile the past and build a better future with what we have.
We haven’t lived up to the ideals we aspire to in the past, but that doesn’t mean we discard them. It means we acknowledge our failures and begin to make amends where its possible.
but that was shameful, and completely undermines their cause.
You realise that there is no form of militant resistance that Hamas could engage in that would not be framed like this? Because Israel and Israel friendly media do the framing.
You know the people i’m sure, the “they brought it on themselves” crowd.
And they would always have said that, just like the Nazis said of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto
We haven’t lived up to the ideals we aspire to in the past
Hypocrisy is when you judge yourself by your intentions, and others by their actions.
Australia supported colonial genocide then, and it supports colonial genocide now.
Oct 7th wasn’t a framing issue. Crimes need to be recognised for what they are. Ameliorating factors, such as reasonable resistance don’t go to the medieval activities of that day.
I judge my country by my and my countrymens actions now and passed. I humbly acquiesced to that past, re-read it.
You have a skewed view of the world if you somehow thought that position in conjunction with my criticisms of Israel, and their refusal to even acknowledge the crimes they’re committing is somehow hypocritical.
Oct 7th wasn’t a framing issue. Crimes need to be recognised for what they are. Ameliorating factors, such as reasonable resistance don’t go to the medieval activities of that day.
So the answer to my question is: no, you don’t realize that any militant resistance Hamas engages in will be framed as “medieval barbarism”.
I judge my country by my and my countrymens actions now and passed. I humbly acquiesced to that past, re-read it.
Then you have to recognize that Australian ideals are entirely in line with what Israel is doing. Australia’s actions, both then and now, show that.
You have a skewed view of the world if you somehow thought that position in conjunction with my criticisms of Israel, and their refusal to even acknowledge the crimes they’re committing is somehow hypocritical.
I thought we were talking about Australia’s values? Why are you talking about your own personal ones now?
I think you should slow down and re-read a lot of what has been said. Your rebuttals are only tenuously linked to the arguments. I’ll try to explain more with some supplementary comments below.
Oct 7th
Is rape, torture, and murder needed for resistance? No, and it undermines the causes of those who conduct themselves that way in resistance. Thats what Oct 7th was. Out of all the propaganda and framing Israel puts out Oct 7th is a crime of the Hamas of that time and their associated groupings. Your fighting an poor, distasteful and losing argument trying to put Oct 7th down to framing, and propaganda.
I suggest focusing on the actual crimes and distortions that are committed, we have no need for made up ones when the examples are abundant.
Then you have to recognize that Australian ideals are entirely in line with what Israel is doing. Australia’s actions, both then and now, show that.
This is foolish to believe Australia’s actions demonstrate any ideals like what Israel is doing. They may be too soft, like many countries, but they are decidedly in the opposite direction of these genocidal actions.
I thought we were talking about Australia’s values? Why are you talking about your own personal ones now?
Your responding to something thats not written. It wasn’t an expression of my personal values, but a comment on your inability to sort your own ideologogy and perhaps a prejudice you harbour for Australia, from the ongoing crimes Israel is committing.
Being a raging firebrand on the internet might be emotionally satisfying in the moment, but in the end the realities of this world reassert themselves, and we then have to deal with the destruction and creation of what is left. Its easier if theres less rebuilding when the inevitable time comes. Don’t forget that.
Stop the whataboutism. Stop defending genocide. Nothing Hamas does or could do can defend genocide.
But if you really want to play that game: everything Hamas does is also Israel’s fault. Israel created Hamas. They funded Hamas deliberately as a way to destabilise the Palestinians. They create oppressive conditions in which a militant organisation like Hamas is bound to thrive. Everything that Hamas does is a predictable outcome of Israel’s actions, and the ultimate blame lies squarely on them.
But again, that’s irrelevant. Because even if Hamas’s own actions weren’t Israel’s fault, Israel’s actions obviously are. Murdering children, doctors, and journalists by the hundreds are classic fascist moves. Displacing people en mass from their homes is genocide. Collective punishment is a war crime. Deliberately starving people is a war crime. Stop defending genocide.
Senior Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri… [in an] interview, which aired on a Libyan television channel… referred with indifference to the number of Palestinians who have been killed in the Gaza war, calling this “the price we have to pay,” and remarked that the women of Gaza will compensate for the loss by “producing” more babies than those who have been killed.
https://www.memri.org/reports/gazans-furious-hamas-it-has-nothing-contempt-victims-war-and-prepared-sacrifice-us-all
ProPals throw accusations of “whataboutism” when someone tries to discuss nuance as often as Zionists throw “anti-Semitism” when they are criticised.
The two points remain unaddressed by you:
Hamas hijack aid and are complaining now that IDF wants to control the distribution to prevent this.
Hamas could surrender for a swift end to the war.
Indeed. Bibi favoured Hamas over Fatah and for cynical reasons as you point out. You are not talking to a one-eyed football mentality person.
Hamas (being right wing fascists like Likud) should have known the consequences of Oct 7 well in advance but they naively thought they could rally Arab neighbours to battle like in the past.
If the Israeli’s had shown an ounce of good faith actions throughout this whole horrible period, then maybe this demand would be less critically read.
But as it stands they have constricted supply of food, electricity and everything else as much as they can, restricted the water supply to, i think, one desal plant, don’t let journalists (even target them) in for a less biased appraisal of whats going on, continually attack the UN and International court for their calls for investigations, attack medical workers, as well as killing, through, bombs or other means, the Palestinians en-masse no matter their gender, age, or relation to their so called enemy Hamas.
Multiple internal surveys of Israeli public opinion paint a putrid picture of the overall societies vision for the ongoing survival of the Palestinian people.
And so, after all of this, the international community is supposed to trust the Israelis will act in good faith and fair dealing in their distribution of aid and resources?
I think not.
Luckily the distribution seems to be going well though. That is a good thing, yes?
It’s nested right wing tabloid dross
No, what Israel and The US are doing is catastrophically bad. It is exactly what my comment warned against.
Israel cannot be trusted to deliver anything for the Palestinians in good faith. What happens as soon as the world’s eyes shift.
The Israeli’s cannot be trusted to be fair minded on this issue for the same reason victims of rape cannot be allowed to name the sentence of their rapist. An impartial party that can as genuinely as possible guarantee the actual aid delivery in the amounts is needed.
I think that video is shot like its a PR stunt, but it doesn’t even matter if its real, fake, a PR stunt, or the sign of a genuine change. There can be no genuine assurances while the Israelis and the US allies control the aid flow, there is no impartiality, and every reason for them to use the aid to maximise their own benefit. Its grotesque that this needs to be explained.
These quotes are from your linked article, and summarise the issue well,
UNWRA was compromised so the impartial party option has been abandoned.
It requires military to keep Hamas from stealing the aid. It is not realistic to expect an outside neutral military to take on this task. UN could not keep Hezbollah in check in Lebanon.
It seems Hamas are annoyed not just that they are being denied supplies for themselves and to sell to civilians but also because they need civilians to be starving to win the PR battle. Full stomachs will divert attention from the war so should we starve the people? Which is it? Allowing Hamas to hijack it isn’t going to happen so forget what the UN says (which is very vague).
Regardless of what we argue here, the distribution will continue. It is just two days into it so let’s see if it going well. Of course for some ProPals it will not go well unless Jews vacate the Levant (an unrealistic fantasy regardless of whether one believes they should be there or not).
UN aid teams plead for access amid reports Gazans shot collecting food
Your points read like propaganda, they’re not a reflection of reality. I suggest you read the link above.
Doesn’t matter that you think they’re some cartoonish bad guy. Its not a spy agency, its an aid agency and it needs to work with Palestinian people in the country.
By Israel’s conveniently umbrella-like ‘assessments’ of these compromised ‘agents’ half the US military would be classified Taliban because they farted in Kabul. They’re people working in the place they’re in, with the people they’re with.
People don’t get to both sides starvation or colllective punishment, or the myriad other crimes. Israel is starving the population of Gaza, simple. When/if we see Hamas doing it, you’ll see my attitudes towards starvation of populations, and other crimes unchanged.
As i’ve said above, it doesn’t matter Hamas’ crimes, it doesn’t mean Israel gets a free pass on their crimes, and withholding food aid, or using it as a method of coercion absolutely are ongoing crimes.
I’ve never seen any verified and independent evidence of this iron grip Hamas apparently has over this bombed out tent city. Read the linked article, who would have thought scarcity created by Israel has had spiralling and detrimental effects on the social cohesion of ~2 million men, women and children.
Unfortunately Israel attempts to block the worlds view of what is happening in Gaza, so their claims must be read down as suspicuous at best, but more likely lies, until one day their actions match their words.
Four rationing points, and this is for a free people of millions?
Aid distributed and closely guarded by their oppressors. Freely given, no coercion, you think?
Think about those questions as you watch this murderous State squeeze this population, and extinguish these people’s lives.
You’re not understanding. Theres a point when the crimes become so heinous that it doesn’t matter what justification they claim, no justification is sufficient. Israel has passed that point, a long time ago in my opinion.
October 7th was heinous and likewise Hamas’ crimes have no justification. That doesn’t somehow ameliorate or absolve the Israelis of the crimes they’re committing.
The difference between the two groups from an Australian perspective is, Israel is a so called liberal democratic nation and has been an erstwhile ally of Australia due to our percieved alignment in values.
What they are doing to Palestinians is so against these ideals that it must call into question our relationship with them.
In Hamas’ case Australia has next to no relationship with, so our reaction to their behaviour is more simple, as its a contnuation of our determinations of them as a group.
Occupied people have a right to resistance
European settlers exterminating indigenous people to take their land is about as inline with Australian ideals as it gets
Absolutely, and the arguments demigrating Hamas never accounted for the fact they’re a key force fighting against the oppression.
That is not what was done on October 7th, it doesn’t undermine the Palestinian cause for freedom, but that was shameful, and completely undermines their cause, as has been demonstrated by the insane response by the Israelis and the lack of care by a lot of people around the world.
You know the people i’m sure, the “they brought it on themselves” crowd.
Australia has a terrible past, and we haven’t treated our first Australians in any way well, but there are a lot of us trying to reconcile the past and build a better future with what we have.
We haven’t lived up to the ideals we aspire to in the past, but that doesn’t mean we discard them. It means we acknowledge our failures and begin to make amends where its possible.
You realise that there is no form of militant resistance that Hamas could engage in that would not be framed like this? Because Israel and Israel friendly media do the framing.
And they would always have said that, just like the Nazis said of the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto
Hypocrisy is when you judge yourself by your intentions, and others by their actions.
Australia supported colonial genocide then, and it supports colonial genocide now.
Oct 7th wasn’t a framing issue. Crimes need to be recognised for what they are. Ameliorating factors, such as reasonable resistance don’t go to the medieval activities of that day.
I judge my country by my and my countrymens actions now and passed. I humbly acquiesced to that past, re-read it.
You have a skewed view of the world if you somehow thought that position in conjunction with my criticisms of Israel, and their refusal to even acknowledge the crimes they’re committing is somehow hypocritical.
So the answer to my question is: no, you don’t realize that any militant resistance Hamas engages in will be framed as “medieval barbarism”.
Then you have to recognize that Australian ideals are entirely in line with what Israel is doing. Australia’s actions, both then and now, show that.
I thought we were talking about Australia’s values? Why are you talking about your own personal ones now?
I think you should slow down and re-read a lot of what has been said. Your rebuttals are only tenuously linked to the arguments. I’ll try to explain more with some supplementary comments below.
Oct 7th
Is rape, torture, and murder needed for resistance? No, and it undermines the causes of those who conduct themselves that way in resistance. Thats what Oct 7th was. Out of all the propaganda and framing Israel puts out Oct 7th is a crime of the Hamas of that time and their associated groupings. Your fighting an poor, distasteful and losing argument trying to put Oct 7th down to framing, and propaganda.
I suggest focusing on the actual crimes and distortions that are committed, we have no need for made up ones when the examples are abundant.
This is foolish to believe Australia’s actions demonstrate any ideals like what Israel is doing. They may be too soft, like many countries, but they are decidedly in the opposite direction of these genocidal actions.
Your responding to something thats not written. It wasn’t an expression of my personal values, but a comment on your inability to sort your own ideologogy and perhaps a prejudice you harbour for Australia, from the ongoing crimes Israel is committing.
Being a raging firebrand on the internet might be emotionally satisfying in the moment, but in the end the realities of this world reassert themselves, and we then have to deal with the destruction and creation of what is left. Its easier if theres less rebuilding when the inevitable time comes. Don’t forget that.